In this episode, Liz and John discuss her new book, Tune In and Dial Out: How to Win at B2B Cold Calling. Listen in and learn practical, tested, and proven tips to help you change your mindset around B2B cold calling, become more effective in your outreach, and turn your leads into loyal customers.

Listen to the episode on Apple Podcast, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Breaker, Pocket casts, RadioPublic, or Anchor. Or read the transcript below.


Quick takeaways from Tune In and Dial Out book [00:32]

Common false beliefs about cold calling [01:37]

How to combat negative self-talk just before making a cold call [04:06]

Is it a good idea to stick to a script when cold calling? [05:59]

Keeping fear under control when making a cold call [06:30]

The difference between self-esteem and confidence in cold calling [07:24]

Vulnerability as an asset in cold calling [08:24]

Honesty in cold calling [10:22]

On the fence about cold calling? Here’s what you need to know [13:46]

Why people love to hate cold calling [14:49]

The purpose of a cold call [15:50]

How to tell someone is not having a good time during the call [17:25]

On dealing with individual belief systems when in a call [18:46]

Asking questions and keeping them coming [21:16]

Best strategy when stuck during the call [23:03]

What to do when someone is not interested during the call [24:40]

How to get a positive NO during your call [27:07]

Why you need to believe in your product during the call [28:49]

Handling someone who is not accommodating during a cold call [30:13]

Should you bring humor into your cold call? [32:28]

Why it is important to know you are not selling but just trying to connect [33:35]

What is the goal of cold calling? [34:37]

Being present across channels including leaving voicemail messages and follow-up emails [36:06]

Learning to listen and be fully present in the moment [39:32]

Building rapport during a call [40:12]


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Liz Lemarchand: How is it that innovative software solutions have the ability to change the world yet they don’t sell themselves? How is it that I know my target market but I’m not able to generate enough sales opportunities? How do I even get started to create visibility for my brand when I’m not an expert in marketing? That is the question and this podcast will give you the answer. Welcome to SMplified: Software Marketing Made Simple!

I’m joined by John Gosnell from our team and we’re going to be discussing my latest book which is Tune In and Dial Out: How To Win At B2B Cold Calling. So, hey John, how are you today?  

John Gosnell: Hey, Liz, I’m great. Thank you.  

Liz Lemarchand: So yeah, what did you think of the book? You kind of got a pre-release version of it. So what did you think?  

John Gosnell: I spent some time with it. I’ve read it twice. And, for me, it helped reimagine and rethink some things in terms of cold calling. I mean, we’re no strangers to calling you and I, and the rest of our team, but I think we do get trapped by certain perspectives and mindsets maybe informed by our own work history or maybe experiences, some of which are good, some of which are not. And I think your book really does an excellent job in outlining a way for us to critically think about our own approach, where we’re coming from and why, and really how to shed the stuff that’s holding us back. 

So I think, you did a great job with that, so kudos.  

Liz Lemarchand: I really wanted to highlight a lot of the common false beliefs that people have about cold calling. Was there any, you know, in particular that resonated with you?  

John Gosnell: Oh, gosh, yeah. So, I mean in my background, I’m certainly no stranger to phone calls. I did a lot of early work with BPO taking phone calls. I’ve taken tens of thousands of calls for technical issues and I was petrified, scared to death when I started.  

Liz Lemarchand: Oh really? That’s interesting cause I wouldn’t have thought that, like on the inbound side, they would cause that kind of fear.  

John Gosnell: Absolutely, because for me, I didn’t know why they were calling and there was a wide spectrum of technical issues. You know, what if I can’t service them? What if they’re angry? There’s all the ‘what ifs’, things you can’t control. But your mindset gradually shifts, even in that setting, to what can I control? How do I control the call to be a value to the person that’s calling, even if I don’t have an answer for them? Can I do something that still provides value for them? Yeah, I was absolutely petrified when I first did that many, many years ago, and you get numb to it, and you mentioned in your book, it’s a muscle that you develop.  

John Gosnell: You know inbound and outbound are definitely different critters though, because you’re initiating on the outbound, but you know who you’re calling and why you’re calling. So there’s a lot more control in that sense.  

I think if we look at it from, uh, basics, you know, make it simple – cause we bring our baggage into it – and one of the things that I had, I had to shatter and I’m still shattering is, you mentioned this in your book, the mindset that I’m interrupting or I’m going to be, you know, Why is this person going to want to interrupt whatever they’re doing in their day, for whatever it is I’m going to say to them? So, I think, you know, in choosing the way we feel about that, which is also something that you spend some time talking about, we choose the way we feel. Do we feel fear? If so, we’re choosing that we could be feeling excitement. We could be feeling intrigue or curiosity.  

John Gosnell: And I’m super curious. You know, for you yourself. How did you get past that? Is there something in your history that helped you bridge between fear to excitement?  

Liz Lemarchand: I think you know, it’s like you talked about earlier with this muscle, you know. You develop the muscle over time you develop it by doing specific exercises. And for me, those exercises include, you know, my morning routine, the mantras, you know, really training yourself to think differently. So, you know, combating that negative self-talk with positive affirmations, for example, or visualization. Or really checking my energy when I go into a call, doing power poses or other types of physicals, like dancing around the room. to loud music, you know, just to get myself into state before I’m going to start my day making calls, you know, because then you’re really starting things out with that positive energy.  

Some of that’s outlined in the book where I talk about what if my call makes this person’s day better. You know, asking yourself some of those questions instead of ‘Oh my God, what am I going to say?’ You know, or some of the other like panic-inspiring types of negative chatter that we could be hearing in our mind that just bring us down the downward spirals.  

Liz Lemarchand: So yeah, I mean, I think it came from a lot of practice, you know. I think with this, with this type of work, you learn as you go. And if you’re open and, allow yourself to learn from each call and understand the prospects and where they’re at, and empathize with them, and be able to really put yourself out there and be vulnerable because when we are authentic, that’s when we really connect with other people, you know?  

If you’re just reading a script or something like that, you know it clearly doesn’t work. And you know, that’s how I started out -reading a script. It’s when it didn’t work, that I realized, like, OK, I have to do something else. But it was funny because that job was a summer job between years in college and I didn’t care if, like, I mean the job didn’t matter to me. So it was easy for me to start shifting my mindset at that point because I had nothing to hide from the outcome.  

A lot of people jump on the downward spiral because they think like, Oh my God, if I don’t get a lead, then I’m going to get fired. And if I get fired, I won’t be able to pay my rent. And if I can’t pay my rent, I’m going to be homeless. And they’re tying too much of an outcome to having a good cold call, you know, which is how that fear gets out of control. And you can feel feelings of being overwhelmed, whereas we don’t need to tie our life existence to the one call.  

John Gosnell: That’s right. That’s a great way to put that and it reminds me of what you said when you took time to explain the difference between self-esteem and confidence. It’s really healthy self-esteem that allows you to do things beyond your confidence level, and we limit ourselves with what we are familiar with.  

Liz Lemarchand: Absolutely! And we do that because it’s a survival instinct. Because that fear, you know, it triggers that fight or flight reflex within us. And, you know, the fact of the matter is, is that it puts us back, you know, to caveman days where we had to fight or run from the tiger, right? But there’s no tiger that’s coming to eat us. It’s just a phone call.  

So you know, putting things kind of back into the perspective of, like ‘I’m actually fine in the moment and there is no tiger coming to eat me and it is a choice how I feel about what I’m doing.’ Practicing that again and again and again so that it becomes my new comfort zone. I think that’s really it. It’s a matter of willingness, desire, and time. You know, ’cause it’s that small. It’s those small efforts compounded over time that make a huge change.  

John Gosnell: Right. And, how do you think it is then when we talk about vulnerability being the greatest strength we bring into a call? Why do you think that? Is it because people kind of root for the underdog?  

Liz Lemarchand: I love that question. The thing is, I’m such a huge fan of Brené Brown. So, you know, if you haven’t checked out the power of vulnerability or even her Netflix special, which is called the Call To Courage, I highly recommend that, and she’s written a dozen books. She’s a shame researcher and very well known for her Ted talks on this topic.  

Everyone has this kind of idea that vulnerability is weakness. And that’s actually also a false belief because there are things that we do in our day-to-day lives that are just naturally vulnerable things, and having a conversation with somebody that you know puts you in a vulnerable position. But being able to do that and having the self-esteem and the confidence to be able to do that and succeed at doing it regardless of whether or not you know that prospect turns into a lead, right?  

Uhm, I think that’s a beautiful thing because it allows you to experience something new every single time. But for sure you know you have no idea how the other person is going to react. It’s like you said at the beginning of our conversation, not being in control of how the other person reacts. But then getting to a place where ‘it doesn’t matter how they react because I’m going to be just fine because I’m sure enough that that is not going to transact with my own sense of self-worth. That’s why I say it’s a strength.  

John Gosnell: I see. Yeah, and you know, I can testify to that in my own history, too, when I’ve been in the position to take the call from a cold caller, when people are just sort of honest if they don’t know something and they admit it.  

I’m much more interested at that point because I know they’re being authentic.  

Liz Lemarchand: Exactly. It’s what creates true connection with people. It’s when we feel that they’re being human that we connect with them. And that’s what I mean as well, by being vulnerable, it takes vulnerability to say I don’t know the answer to that question. You know, you don’t have to stop there, you can obviously explain that. You’ll find out or put them in touch with somebody who does know the answer to the question, but, you know, actually admitting to that makes people wildly uncomfortable. It makes them worried about judgment coming from the other person thinking, ‘Oh my God, they’re going to think I’m still so stupid because I don’t know the answer to this question.’  

And on the contrary, it’s like you said, if we try to fake it and pretend like we know and we come up with some kind of nonsensical answer, people can see right through that. You know, it’s kind of like being drunk at a party. When you’re drunk at a party, you think nobody can tell that you’re drunk. Everyone knows that you are. You think you’re walking around so sophisticated, you know, talking to people and not slurring your words, but everybody can see right through that, like everybody knows.  

What would you say to someone who might be on the fence about the value of cold calling ’cause? I know that a lot of people challenge that, like, Oh yeah! But there’s really no value in that. I mean, I try to explain obviously in the book that you know my thoughts, that is that cold calling has value, but what do you think about that?  

John Gosnell: So I’m actually a huge fan of this idea. I think the reason people think that cold calling is a dead end is because they are in this sort of millennial mindset where the phone is dead and people record messages on their answering machine like ‘don’t leave a message,’ because nobody wants to talk to each other anymore, or so it seems. But I think in a business context, that’s completely different. We can reach out as peers, and that’s something that really struck out to me in your book. When we are doing sort of a, when we consider ourselves peers, we’re doing a peer-to-peer outreach. We call it cold calling, but really we are two business professionals and I have something that could be revolutionary. It could be transformative to your day-to-day business. And I’m just going to share with you what that is, ‘wouldn’t you like to learn more about it?’  

You can connect with the person and you can in real-time. You can hear their tone, you can hear what’s important to them, what’s not important to them. And, I think you even mentioned in the book, you can hear by the way they are breathing, whether or not they are engaged with you or their sentiment. That you get so many more signals,  

John Gosnell: So, I think it’s really a smart thing to do. So, I would say to somebody who’s on the fence that you have not tried it because once you try it and you start to pick up on these signals that you’re sharing with us, it makes the job easier. And I think it feels like the job is more difficult because it’s like, ‘Oh my gosh, I’ve got to find the right number’ or ‘I’ve got to get through the gatekeeper’ and then ‘are they going to even pick up?’ And when they do pick up, ‘am I interrupting them?’ We’re having all these downward spiral thoughts like you mentioned, you know, if they are so busy, why did they pick up the phone in the first place? So if they picked up the phone, don’t feel like you’ve gotta rush. They’re the one that picked up the phone.  

Liz Lemarchand: For sure, I love that for sure and I do think it comes from that perspective shift that we mentioned earlier, that we are engaging in this peer-to-peer discussion to provide value to somebody else and to see if we can create a win-win for both businesses.  

So, it’s not about selling stuff. It is not about pushing something on somebody else. I do think the reason why people love to hate cold calling is because for them, it’s just so wildly uncomfortable they really don’t want to do. It and it’s such a great way to like blame something else, right?  Like, ‘Oh no, but that doesn’t work, right?’ or ‘I don’t think that that’s a good idea.’ You know, because like you said, they probably haven’t tried it because they just haven’t been able to get over these difficulties, these challenges that they’ve faced before. And so it’s just easier to, you know, be like, well, that doesn’t work. I kind of equate it to when people don’t want to take any type of personal responsibility and it’s just easier to blame everything around us than have a look at how we could be doing something different, yeah.  

John Gosnell: Yeah, absolutely. It’s about the purpose. In the book, the insight I gained was that the purpose of my call is to give. The goal is for me just to shut up and listen. And then my personal strategy is be human, be authentic. If that’s really all I’m bringing into each call. Yeah, I may have a call to action. There is a reason why I called, but I think at that point people are going to pick up on that. Kind of like the drunk guy at the party. They are gonna pick up on the one sober person too.  

Liz Lemarchand: Sure, then there can be no bad outcome, right? And I do mention that in the book too, because every phone call is not going to turn into lead, and especially in the B2B context. I mean, we can’t even talk about sales, right? I mean, sales cycles are so long, it’s never in one cold call that somebody is going to buy a complex software solution, right? But if I can learn from something, you know, something from every single call that I have made, regardless of what that is, then that’s a great outcome.  

So, I think that that’s a better way of kind of going into it with that kind of mindset in the first place and that’s the growth mindset that I kind of mentioned towards the end.  

There was something else I was going to ask you. You had asked a question earlier, before we started recording this podcast about blueprints. I don’t know if you want to ask that question to me again?  

John Gosnell: Yeah, absolutely because I thought that was a good point. We sometimes talk about that in a negative sense. Like when somebody is upset, or if they act like they’re not having time, or if they’re not paying attention to you during the call, or if there’s a certain way they’re reacting to something you have said, and you have written in the book that that may be them just showing you their blueprint. There’s a way to read that. And I’m curious, what do you mean? And, you know, how do we read somebody’s blueprint? How do we use that?  

Liz Lemarchand: Yeah, so I mean, anytime you were having an interaction with somebody, they’re really just showing us something. I mean, and this happens in all types of relationships, not just business relationships. Most people, when they say, you know, I don’t know, you could be talking to someone and be like, yeah, I’ve got a pair of purple pants, you know, and without anybody asking anybody anything, they’ll say, well, let me tell you what I think about purple pants. You know, nobody asked them. And really, that’s just them showing us their blueprint, right? All of the belief systems that we have about what we should do or shouldn’t do and what other people should or shouldn’t do really is just them telling us about their values, what they think is important, you know?  

So that’s what I mean when I say blueprint is really their value system, their beliefs. A lot of people create a story, but the story is not a fact, it is probably just an opinion that is based on something that happened in the past as an experience, and that’s shaped the way that they believe life should be now, in the present moment. So when somebody gets upset, I think the worst things that cold callers do is that they don’t acknowledge the elephant in the room. You can tell when somebody is, you know, it’s like we said before, you can feel that vibe across the phone line when somebody is stressed out or they are in a bad mood or they feel like they don’t have the time.  

So instead of just plowing through your script and trying to get around that by ignoring it, the best thing is just to call it out. ‘Hey, I really feel like you’re in a bad mood today. What’s going on?  Is there anything I can do to help? Did something happen this morning?  

People appreciate that, it Is like you said before, it’s the human contact that we’re providing and people, most of the time, if you ask them that, they’ll just be like, ‘Yeah, I’m really sorry. It has nothing to do with you.’  

You know, maybe they had a fight with their wife that morning, or their dog died or something happened. And they are just like, not all there. Or they’re not, you know, at 100% or they are just having a bad day. But maybe you can make their day slightly better just by asking them, right?  

So, those are kind of what I mean when I say their blueprint. When you can tell that somebody is annoyed, calling it out, and trying to understand why they’re annoyed then trying to do something differently so that you’re getting back something more positive. Because it’s not about you like, it’s really 99.9% of the time, especially if you’re showing up with positivity. Like it really actually has nothing to do with you. And we imagine what people are thinking in their heads, but we have no idea what they’re thinking in their head. We just project our belief system onto other people.  

Liz Lemarchand: So I don’t know, what else did you kind of have as a take away from the book that you’d like to share with our listeners today?  

John Gosnell: Well, I liked that, the way you made a statement in the book, you said when you stop asking questions, the conversation is over. It’s really about asking. Good questions and keeping those good questions coming that is how we become good listeners and discover the blueprint in a positive way.  

Don’t stop until you get the answer you need. I think that’s an area where I have personally struggled, and my own development is sometimes keeping those questions going, feeling like, ‘wow, you know, I just ran out of valuable things to ask, but I didn’t get anywhere near where I wanted’. One of the ways, I think your book provided me another outlet. Another approach is to mirror the objection. So from asking questions and then and then there is an objection, all I need to do is restate that objection in the form of a question.   

Liz Lemarchand: Yeah, I love that. And I can’t take credit for that. That’s Chris Voss, and I do cite it in the book. So, Chris Voss, who was an FBI negotiator and wrote the bestselling book called Never Split The Difference. He describes that technique, and I actually did his online master class where he discusses that at length and it’s such a great way. Especially when you know when you’re cold going you can get stuck and the go-to for most cold callers is ‘uuuuh uuuh uuh.’ That really is the beginning of the end.  

Like when you are there and you just can’t figure out what you want to say and you are stuck and the client knows you are stuck and then those seconds feel like hours course that really is when mirroring is the best go-to strategy. Like you said, not only are you taking the words that the prospect said, and you’re throwing them back in the form of a question, you are enabling the prospect to feel heard, and you are creating and building rapport with the prospects because they feel like they have been hurt and you really use the exact words that they sent.  

So, if somebody comes out and says, ‘we are using XYZ solution’ and you say ‘you are using XYZ solution?’ Then they are prompted to give you more information. ‘Yeah, we put it in place back in 2015 and we’ve got X number of users.’ Right, so you get more information that way. It prompts them to give you more and then the conversation keeps running and then, because you’ve gotten more info, you can think about additional follow-up questions that you can ask.  

But for me, there’s nothing worse than when you’re talking to somebody, you’ve given them some interesting piece of information and then they’re just asking the next question that’s on their script and it has nothing to do with what I just said. That breaks rapport and then the prospect thinks like ‘this guy is not even listening to me, what the hell is the point of having this conversation if they’re not even going to listen to what I just said?’  

John Gosnell: That’s interesting. So, something else that I thought was personally helpful was, ‘what do I do?’ Sometimes people are just like ‘no’ or ‘I’m not interested.’ And something that you said in the book was that this may mean that you just need to dig a little bit deeper, ask better quality questions. It can be very reflexive, it could just be something they said that they don’t seriously mean and you give an interesting story about that with a telemarketer calling you, but the fact that a person says no doesn’t mean the conversation is over.  

A huge, big, big false belief that people have is that no means no and that’s the end.  

Liz Lemarchand: And you know the thing about this that is so important is to think back of experiences in your life when, let’s say, you were presented with an opportunity and you said no. And then later you thought about it and that no turned into a yes. I mean, sometimes I need like four or five times saying no before I’m like, ‘yeah, OK, let’s do it.’  

So, I think it’s important because the instincts for most people is to say no on that first try. That first time being asked a question where it gets them out of their comfort zone, where they’re presented with something new that they haven’t maybe thought about before, most people are going to say no. So, being able to say, ‘yeah, I get it, like this is something new, I understand that maybe you need more time to think about this.’ It’s not something you maybe thought was on your road map right now and you can keep going, I think it’s a way. I mean, the example in my book was like he couldn’t get more quintessential than that particular example, but because she really took no at face value so quickly without digging deeper. I think that it was unfortunate because, maybe there was an offer that could have really helped. But I will say to them that ‘when you get to know, you know’. Think about, why is it that they could be saying no to this? Is it just because we are trained to say no on these types of calls, right? That is where I also have another tip, which is when you have uuuuh some of your questions, make them give you no, which is a positive answer. Like, ‘is this a bad time for me to be calling you?’  

Well, you want them to say no? And then that reassures them. It’s like a psychological trip. It reassures them like, ‘OK, I got to say no, that feels good for me because I want to say no’, but that’s the answer that you were looking for.  

So there are lots of things that we can do in that respect. Would it be crazy to think that you want to save time and money? No, like everybody wants to save time and money. So you see what I mean? Now that obviously sounds very salesy what I just said but there are variations on that that you can use and kind of scatter in the conversation so that the person naturally feels better. They are not going to know why they feel better but they are just gonna feel better, and as soon as you have anyone that feels better, then you are building rapport.  

John Gosnell: That’s great. Building rapport and then when the person is acting a bit defensive, they haven’t said no, but you can tell they’re very guarded. You say in the book that one of the best ways to break through is with passion. Have passion about what you are talking about.  

Liz Lemarchand: Yeah, and that’s hard for a lot of cold callers ’cause they don’t see the bigger picture on the value that they’re actually bringing, so it does come back to that. Of course, you know, you have to believe in the product that you’re representing, and some people, you know, they don’t. That fundamentally is a problem. I mean, when I started out my career, I was working for a while and, you know, marketing communications and PR, and there was a company that I was working for and I really just felt that their products were bad for people like, you can’t, you can’t. From an ethical, moral standpoint, you know, obviously, there’s a conflict there. But if you do, I mean especially in the technology, my gosh, like I find technology just to be so so fascinating because of the way it impacts our lives and helps us improve the way we do business.  

You know, it’s easy, for me at least, to see the value and then become really passionate about that value. And it’s true that becomes electric as people are very much attracted when somebody is talking about something that they’re passionate about. Now getting back to the party example, like how many times have you been to party and somebody just lights up because they’re talking about something that they just love and people are drawn to that, they want to hear. So yeah, that’s definitely a tip that I give. Get passionate about it, but also I think too, if somebody is really defensive, like, I never go in the opposite. Any time that you are like almost creating a battle with somebody, you know if you are holding onto your position, and they’re holding onto their position, it’s basically like picking up one side of a rope and pulling on it, and they’re pulling on their side. So you’re creating this kind of tug of war.  

I mean, being able to go in their direction like other people, at times this happens when. For example, somebody will say, ‘oh, well, just send me an e-mail with some information’. You could let that be the end of the conversation. ‘OK, sure, I’ll send you an e-mail’. But that’s not the culture action you want. And then who says they’re even going to read the e-mail. Honestly, if somebody can’t spend 5 minutes on the phone with you, are they going to spend 5 minutes reading an e-mail? So, ‘I’d be happy to send you some information’ that’s going in their direction, ‘and I’d also like to just ask you, one last question about…’ and then you try to get in another question. And if the person really is defensive then I would call it out as like we said before, don’t ignore the elephant in the room, right? ‘So I can see you’re feeling really defensive. I’m sorry if I came off as being salesy. I’m honestly just trying to have a conversation with you to better understand your business, how you run things, what projects you’re working on’, whatever it is that you say, right, whatever rings true for you. ‘I can tell that you’re really busy and, you know, maybe I can call you back another time’.  

John Gosnell: Right. ‘Our features may be so extensive that I need to understand a little more about your industry’ or ‘I do send you something relevant’.  

Liz Lemarchand: Yeah, or like I said, insert the no answer like, ‘Am I really bothering you?’ And you want them to say no.  

John Gosnell: Have you ever gotten it?  

Liz Lemarchand: Have I ever gotten a yes? Well, yeah, that can. Sometimes people are really just a piece of work. So that’s OK. And then that’s when you’re like, ‘OK, gosh, I’m really sorry and I’ll send you over an e-mail’. ‘Hopefully we can talk again soon and then you know you still persist, though, you don’t let it go, you know?  

And then, I always try to bring humor into it at some point, too. I mean, I’m not the best like joke cracker, but at the same time, if there’s any way to break the ice by using humor, that can also really help to break the pattern. Breaking the pattern is important, because, like I’ve said before, it’s when you can get your prospects to kind of step out of the role I’m supposed to say no and be negative because I have this perception about cold calling I don’t want to buy anything, so I need to be standoffish and I need to be guarded because I don’t want to buy anything, right? But the fact of the matter is that with B2B cold calling, we’re not actually selling anything. We’re just trying to understand the business context to see if there could be an opportunity in the future for us to explore options. Let’s put it that way.  

John Gosnell: Right, that’s the true epiphany, isn’t it? It’s we’re not even selling, we’re just trying to connect them with information and a good positive context with an expert. Typically, somebody who can truly understand what their business needs, maybe with a few simple questions and then they can decide at that point whether or not that’s something they want. You’re just giving them an invitation and hopefully in a way that you’re generating curiosity. You’re just giving them an invitation, and I think so many of us go into this thinking, ‘gosh, how am I going to sell this mega corporation on this new solution?’ And that’s totally not what we’re doing. 

Liz Lemarchand: Yeah, I mean, I think of it as, you know, a cold door opener. And that’s really all it is, because like we said before, nobody is going to buy a complex software solution over the phone because they talk to you for 5 minutes. It’s just never going to happen. So it shouldn’t be the goal of the goal. The goal is to provide value, to educate, to understand, to learn, and to bridge them to the next step, the call to action, which would be, you know, ‘I’d love to show you what we have on a demo’.  

It’s kind of like, I equate it to, you know, purchasing a car. Like nobody’s going to buy a car over the phone in 5 minutes because they called me and asked me if I plan on buying a new car. Like you’d have to be a crazy person to buy a car on the phone, right? Because everyone is going to want to test drive it and you’re going to have to compare it with other types of vehicles and you know, understand, and get a budget available and all that kind of stuff. 

And it’s the same with software sales. It’s just totally unrealistic. It’s not like we’re selling, you know, bathing suits or antivirus software that you can download in 30 seconds on your PC. So it’s really important, especially with certain ISV OEM types of campaigns, that we run, this is a very complex kind of business engagement and exploring that option, like you’re literally just opening up the door for this discussion to start. That’s it.  

John Gosnell: And it’s only one possibly of dozens of touch points you should have with that person. It doesn’t have to be the one that triggers them into a connection as a lead.  

Liz Lemarchand: Sure, sure. I mean, we talk about Omni channel outreach. We talk about being present across channels and you know, those touch points are so important because it creates visibility and it inspires behavior based on that. So, leaving voicemail messages and following up with e-mail and doing social selling on LinkedIn like those are all important parts of the puzzle. But you know, most sales people these days, they avoid the phone like the plague and they over rely on other channels. But the fact of the matter is that it’s really, really easy to ignore e-mail messages. It’s really easy not to connect and not to reply on LinkedIn. So adding an extra channel in there is absolutely critical, even though you know people are skeptical of the phone at best and loathing it at worst.  

John Gosnell: Right. And you never know, like you said, you may be bringing value to that person. It reminds me of, of reaching out to uh, SVP of a product, and he ended up telling me I was the only person who had ever gotten through to him at his desk. Well, I think that underscores what you’re saying, that this isn’t underutilized tool, and we really need to not focus on things that are easily forgotten, ignored. Oh boy, when somebody is ringing on your on your phone leaving you voicemails. Not only are you getting their attention, you’re showing them that they’re important.  

Liz Lemarchand: Well, that must have made you feel very important when you got that SVP on the line. That’s great.  

John Gosnell: Yeah, absolutely. Even though they weren’t ready to move forward, it was great just being able to connect right and know that they appreciated it. They were actually impressed that somebody took the time to figure out how to get ahold of them at their desk.  

Liz Lemarchand: Yeah, that reminds me of some presentations I’ve seen from Sara Blakely. So, Sara Blakely, who is the founder of Spanx, and multi billionaire at this point, but, you know, she started out doing exactly like that. Business entrepreneurs also forget that some of the greatest success stories, in terms of business leaders, they started out doing cold calling. I really do believe that anyone who is capable of getting good at cold calling, like you, can do anything, anything. Like those skills are transferable to any area.  

John Gosnell: And that’s something you mentioned early in the book too, that you can really roll this into your personal life as a husband or a wife. And that can transform you in terms of business, personal enterprise with friendships. And I was wondering, like, how was it doing that? But as I read the book, it occurred to me, a lot of it had to do with shutting up.  

Liz Lemarchand: Well, it’s true. I mean, and I’m a talker, don’t get me wrong.  I’m somebody naturally wired for talking. And it’s taken a lot for me to learn how just to listen, not interrupt, be fully present in the moment, allow people to talk, get curious. It’s like genuinely curious, not just like, you know, asking questions for the sake of continuing a conversation, but like genuinely getting curious to understand somebody else or their business context, their job, what they do. And it’s true that, especially as a parent, it is so important for us to be able to show up for our kids and just be there for them, without telling them what to do and giving them orders all the time and dictating, like all of the choices that they make. So, being able to do that on a call by listening, really getting curious, like you can totally do that at home with your family and it’ll help you again, you know, build the rapport that you need, which is so essential because once you’ve built rapport, you’re in the sphere of trust, right? And you want to be in the sphere of trust because then people will give you valuable information that you need.  

So whether that be, you know, with our children so that they tell us, you know, that the kid is bullying them in school or that, be with a prospect because they’re telling us about, some upcoming needs that they have or whatever it is. It’s important for us to be able to do that.  

Well, I’m glad that you liked it. I really appreciate you taking the time to be able to talk to our listeners today about it. And I hope that everyone also feels inclined to go on to Amazon and purchase the book, again it is TuneIn and dial out how to win at B2B Cold calling.  

And we also have plenty of other resources on our resource library at, all of which are free. So please make sure to check that out too. Anything else you wanted to say, John?  

John Gosnell: I just want to mirror a little bit of what you said, but I’m going to phrase it a little differently and say you are the cold calling guru.  

Liz Lemarchand: Oh my gosh.  

John Gosnell: Many love your expertise here.  

Liz Lemarchand: I don’t know about that, but thanks very much for saying that, but I appreciate it, John, and I’m glad that it was able to serve you.  

That was really my purpose of writing it. I know a lot of people struggle with cold calling and you know they have to do it for their jobs, but it’s the thing they hate most or like least about their job and so if this can at least provide some relief to people so that it’s not as difficult. I used to have a job where, I’d wake up in the morning and I’d just feel sick to my stomach and having to go to work. And it’s the worst feeling in the world, and nobody should have to feel that. But there’s no reason to quit a job just because you feel uncomfortable with part of the responsibilities just up level your skill set. And get better and then it won’t feel so bad, you know.  

So we also have our online marketing class, the online master class, which is called the essentials of lead generation, which is a great next step after you’ve read the book and that gives tons of other tips about how to generate leads, how to be able to get your foot in the door with B2B prospects and be successful at sales and marketing. So, definitely I would encourage people to check that out as well.  

Thank you so much, John. I really appreciate your time today.  

John Gosnell: Fantastic. Thank you too.  

Liz Lemarchand: Take care.  

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